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We "lost" about 15% of the workforce yesterday.
50-ish were let go, really without tons of warning.
I am still good to go, but talk about a confidence kick :001_huh:
Back story, a 50+ year family operated business was sold to an investment group 2.5 years ago...new president month and a half ago, now... a new "way of life".
Positive thoughts to those in similar circumstances.
It's pretty sad what is happening...no consumer confidence at all...the media or our leaders in DC want us to believe there is some kind of economic recovery...they mention it often, yet the numbers say otherwise...just typical Washington spin...
I think it will get worse before it gets better...look at all the commercial buildings that are vacating and have "Space Available" signs on them.
Now the middle class folks who did what they could to keep their homes have given up...lots of foreclosures last month, with many more to follow.
Bank rates are low, but there aren't many buyers...families are now moving in with their families...apartments aren't even full, which I thought would have been a good market to get into...
Most folks are either unable to spend, or are saving just in case...
How slow can the economy go?? Buckle your seat belt, it's going to be one heck of a ride...
Oh, if all else fails, folks can always get 99 weeks of unemployment benefits, more welfare provided by our leaders who don't have a grasp of money and how it works...print more moRE MORE...
Raise taxes on the remaining working folks, making them have less disposable income...
Oy, what a mess...
[QUOTE=PeepingScott;364337]
I think it will get worse before it gets better..
You ain't the only one!
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=2]Sorry about the layoffs, been there done that, maybe not over yet. It does suck a lot of the joy out of working, but the alternative isn't so hot either.
I think 99 weeks is GREAT. The government is trying to keep a floor under the economy. The money supply is contracting, that is not good. If consumers and business can't or won't spend, then the government is left to do that as well (not that it's good at it).
If deflation kicks in, mortgage holders will be doomed and the economy will tank. Do you really want to go there? I think the deficit is a problem, but that should be secondary to keeping the economy (money supply & jobs) growing. Print, baby print. The deficit hawks will lead us to a second depression.
[/SIZE][/FONT]
Not to make this political because this covers both parties IMO. People are not spending because the government is spending recklessly and they know they are the one who will have to pay it back.
Sorry about the layoffs.
[QUOTE=1Perry;364472]Not to make this political because this covers both parties IMO. People are not spending because the government is spending recklessly and they know they are the one who will have to pay it back.
Sorry about the layoffs.[/QUOTE]
[I agree keeping politics out is good.]
Do people really think that way? I don't wake up and say, man won't buy a new TV today because the government is spending too much. I won't buy that TV cause I'm worried I may lose my job or because the economy is sinking. I am not saying that the government doesn't affect those worries, but just wondering do people really key on government spending when making their own spending decisions? This is really off topic and I apologize.
If we have to manage our money as a household, then why shouldn't the State, Local, and Federal Governments do the same?? Because they don't know how...they don't...
They don't have a grasp on being an average working Joe, trying to make ends meet...notice how politicians end up being career politicians? Many never worked a public job, they get their law degree and end up in politics and become VERY WEALTHY along the way, and get a fat cat retirement that only we can dream of...they don't get Social Security, they get caviar and champaign, not peanuts...
It's a professional scam...
99 weeks of unemployment is welfare. I remember when it was 20 weeks, and after that, maybe a short extension...now people don't aren't as eager to look for work because they are covered for a year and a half...it's disgusting...
Word!!!!!!
Scott is right on.
All politicians are worthless bums milking off of US
seems like people are never short of money when it comes to beer and ice cream, they can't say strawberry but they know what they want!! I sell thousands of dollars in ice cream each week!! Mom's come in at ten in the morning for two scoops each and it's non stop all day.
No, I don't think Scott is right on. I for one have been lucky to keep my job such that it is. But on the other side of the coin I have watched my 2 step sons and my Finacee get layed of due to the sucky economy. I have also watched all three of them apply and apply for jobs in and out of their respective fields with not even a nibble at a job. I have also watched my daughter struggle with being out of high school for 2 years and not be able to find a job. So how does getting un-employment equate to welfare? the companies we all work for pay into that fund for the government. It's not everyone's fault they are un-employed. You can thank the big investment banks that blew the housing bubble to bits. I mean seriously how long were housing prices supposed rise? Till everyone had to pay 500,000 for a 3 bedroom house set so close to your neighbor that you could hear them sneeze from ten feet away? And as far as the economy goes now, where is the money OUR government GAVE to those big investment banks because they were to big to fail? The government should at least offer a bailout for the working class after all the big execs of those banks got their BIG AZZ bonuses and that was after the handout. Just my 2 cents but then withe state of the economy I should only make that 1/2 of a cent. I might need the other 1 1/2 for food later this month.
Joe
I agree with joe- give the working class a bailout.
I have a feeling that unless companies quit being so greedy and shipping manufacturing jobs overseas just to make a little bit more money, we're going to be stuck in an economic rut because manufacturing jobs used to make up a large chunk of the job market.
I'd still like to hear what the alternative is to government spending. I'll I've heard is complaining about the government spending, what is the alternative? Do you buy the point that we should avoid a contracting economy if we can? Would you prefer that all 3 sources of spending should contract at the same time?
Mark
With the printing up of money that isn't there, and trying to revitalize the economy, the long term effect will be worse than the short term boost, wait and see...
I've heard economists say that we should have not had any bail outs, and let the economy collapse and rebuild like they have in the past. Printing up money that doesn't exist hasn't happened in the past...Type out a billion, or write out a billion on a piece of paper...9 zero's...a trillion has 12 zero's. This isn't chump change...will our economy ever recover to repay the national debt? Who knows? It would take a very strong economy a long period of time for results, most of us will be pushing up daisies by the time it happens, IF it happens...
Like I said earlier, we manage our households finances, why can't the politicians do the same??
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=+3][B]U.S. N[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=+2][B]ATIONAL[/B][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=+3][B]D[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=+2][B]EBT[/B][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=+3][B]C[/B][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=+2][B]LOCK[/B][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The Outstanding Public Debt as of 14 Aug 2010 at 01:17:15 PM GMT is:
[/FONT] <table border="5" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="5"> <tbody><tr><td align="center">[IMG]http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/debtiv.gif[/IMG]</td></tr> </tbody></table>
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The estimated population of the United States is [B]308,925,202[/B]
so each citizen's share of this debt is [B]$43,129.45[/B].[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
[B]$4.11 billion per day[/B] since September 28, 2007![/FONT]
But if the economy collapses we all burn with it, yes? I won't argue that the deficit is a terrible thing, it is. But if the economy collapses we'll have to default on all of that debt, and I don't even want to contemplate that. If the economy can be reboosted with another 500 BILLION (or whatever) of government spending its much cheaper than starting from scratch. I don't have enough land for subsistence farming.
Scott you don't like the deficit, I hear that, but is the best way out of this recession for the government to slow its spending? If we take that course what would you expect the economy to be like over the next year or two.
Mark
[IMG]http://toycars.redlinesonline.info/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=435&d=1281740756[/IMG]I figure they divide up astronomical and incomprehensible numbers like this by the # of citizens:
[IMG]http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/debtiv.gif[/IMG]
to make it more graspable, but I don't think that each should actually owe the approximate amount of $46,000.00. I've always been of the thought that the amount owed by any one citizen should be pro-rated to your income level.
If you are a Wall Street financial tycoon who rakes in $50Million/year, you would pay considerably more towards paying down the debt than the slurpee server behind the counter at 7-11. I think folks who've financially benefited more from the system should owe a more proportional amount.
[IMG]http://toycars.redlinesonline.info/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=435&d=1281740756[/IMG]The numbers might be more like this:
Wall Street tycoon's amount oweable: $1,000,000.00
7-11 Slurpee server's amount oweable: $1,000.00
[IMG]http://toycars.redlinesonline.info/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=435&d=1281740756[/IMG]That's not to mention children, should really owe anything 'just yet' for obvious reasons, ALTHOUGH, they do stand to inherit the benefits of millions of years of progress. They weren't born in a cave, but rather into modern industrial society with all the comforts such as automobiles, paved roads, running hot and cold water, X-Boxes, stoves and fridges, someone else to kill your meat for you, etc....They're born into a system where most the the dirty work has been long previously done for them.
[IMG]http://toycars.redlinesonline.info/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=435&d=1281740756[/IMG]Your share of the national debt should be proportional to your income!
Andy[IMG]http://toycars.redlinesonline.info/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=435&d=1281740756[/IMG]
Word of the day: graspable! Never heard it, plan on using it...
Tax and spend, tax and spend, tax and spend, higher taxes, more spending, I would think "We the People" are pretty tired of it. If the people in charge would CONTROL the spending and cut programs, then we'd see results...they spend like drunken sailors...Federal employees now earn more than the private sector, what a surprise, never used to be that way...
We could help our economy by actually enforcing our immigration policies. 11 to 20 million illegal aliens are sucking us dry. I'm tired of hearing "they do the jobs American's won't do". They are forcing medical expenses to increase as well...and bleeding our social services dry...I'll bet there are many people out there willing to work(unless they are on the cushy 99 week unemployment compensation), or at least we could force the able bodied deadbeats on Welfare to do the same work the illegals are doing. At least they could earn their keep for once. Inmates in Prison can perform the same work too, instead of working out for hours a day...chain gangs are my vision...and they won't send the money they earn back to their home country...
We have some serious issues based on laws overlooked for years and years...our politicians can't ever agree on a budget, and seldom meet the deadlines required BY LAW to have the budget on time. They are above the law it seems...
If I were King of America...
Would anyone vote for such a mean spirited individual????
[IMG]http://toycars.redlinesonline.info/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=435&d=1281740756[/IMG]Hey Scott,...maybe you ARE cut out to be King:chef:. If you move your cursor over the little green bars by your avatar, it says you are a 'Jewel In The Rough'.
That's graspable!!!
Hmmmmmmmm..."Jewel in the Rough"...that's a line from "Ladies Room" off of Kiss's album "Dressed to Kill" I believe...
[QUOTE=mlbuser;365168]I'd still like to hear what the alternative is to government spending. I'll I've heard is complaining about the government spending, what is the alternative? Do you buy the point that we should avoid a contracting economy if we can? Would you prefer that all 3 sources of spending should contract at the same time?
Mark[/QUOTE]
Not spending. Government spending does not create anything. All it does is take from someone and give it to someone else. There is nothing created.
The government took 800 bilion dollars and gave it to Wall Street. Did you benefit from that? Do you benefit when your taxes go up to pay that money back? (it's money that had to be borrowed from places like China).
Did you gain when billions of those dollars went to banks overseas? Are you going to benefit when asked to pay that money back?
[QUOTE=mlbuser;365229]But if the economy collapses we all burn with it, yes? I won't argue that the deficit is a terrible thing, it is. But if the economy collapses we'll have to default on all of that debt, and I don't even want to contemplate that. If the economy can be reboosted with another 500 BILLION (or whatever) of government spending its much cheaper than starting from scratch. I don't have enough land for subsistence farming. [/quote]
The economy wasn't going anywhere. Wall Street is making record profits. It's not because we bailed them out. We are still feeding the profits with the ultra low interest rates. Low rates that will come back to bite us soon.
The arguement was that they had to stop a run on the banks like happened during the depression. B.S. there was no need to make a run as the deposits are gauranteed unlike during the depression. If a bank goes under, the vast majority of people don't lose anything. Banks are still failing in record numbers. G.S. is doing fine despite screwing us over.
[quote]Scott you don't like the deficit, I hear that, but is the best way out of this recession for the government to slow its spending? If we take that course what would you expect the economy to be like over the next year or two.
Mark[/QUOTE]
I would expect it to start turning around.
Scott is 100% on target with his comments. Not to politicize this but the same exact type of situation was inherited by Reagan when he took office from the previous administration. The peanut farmer had his imaginary $$ tree as well & drove us into an economic collapse (eerily familiar to now) & stimulated the economy by cutting taxes to [B][I]all[/I][/B], thus helping large & small business grow, by hiring more & driving unemployment down in his first term in office. Smaller government has shown throughout our history, to have the strongest economic growth than the ones like now entrenched in DC. Bailouts are not the way to go especially when there's [B][I]NO[/I][/B] economic growth being provided.
" I've always been of the thought that the amount owed by any one citizen should be pro-rated to your income level.
If you are a Wall Street financial tycoon who rakes in $50Million/year, you would pay considerably more towards paying down the debt than the slurpee server behind the counter at 7-11. I think folks who've financially benefited more from the system should owe a more proportional amount."
I'm so tired of these arguements. I make a comfortable living but hey I spent 4 years of college, 4 years of graduate school and then an additional 3 years of training to get where I am at. I was almost 29 years old before I was done and had gone straight through working my ass off. The gov't had to come in and say my training was limited to 80 hours/week and at most 36 hours/shift straight to make it humane....before that I had a couple of 100+hour weeks in grad school. I got paid during my training and at one point made $4/hr...in 2004 mind you. I left grad school with 120K in loan debt....yep thats a house at a lot of place. Now that I make a decent income I'm due to pay more money than the 7-11 guy? That's BS. If anything the 7-11 guy uses more social services/year than my entire family combined. Don't feed me the arguement that we all have different opportunties either.....first one in my family to go to college. I'm tired of being the whipping boy or being punished for having some success and working my ass off to get it. If more people got out there and took the opportunities given to them then we wouldn't be in this mess.....hell if we didn't have so many high school dropouts and people valued an education be wouldn't be in this mess.
My 25cents worth---
Jmaner,
It's called an entitlement mentality...many people know of no other condition, or learned to enjoy it...
What cracks me up is I've always thought the rich were an asset to the economy. Why? BECAUSE THEY SPEND MONEY!! More than most folks, I might add...
I'm not rich, but I sure appreciate rich people and all that they do. It takes enthusiasm and drive to succeed, and it's possible with work work WORK...
The able bodied welfare deadbeats are what chap my hide...or the one's who milk the system with a fake disability...
But then again, I used to admire Hippies too, not a care in the world...I still think about hippies from time to time...
Peace, Love, Dope...
the sad reality is there are many in this society who believe they are entitled to a "hand out" but are unwilling to do whatever is needed to avoid needing one.
We should "help" those in society that need "help". Those that make more are natuarally going to pay more. There is nothing wrong with that. The problem is as jmaner notes, when some believe it's wrong for some who have worked for it to have more than they do.
It's wrong to do what the government is doing today in picking who should be helped and who should be allowed to fail.
[QUOTE=1Perry;365483]It's wrong to do what the government is doing today in picking who should be helped and who should be allowed to fail.[/QUOTE]
Bingo.......everyone needs help now & then but it's those who think that they're 100% entitled to it.....that's the problem.
[QUOTE=PeepingScott;365472]Jmaner,
What cracks me up is I've always thought the rich were an asset to the economy. Why? BECAUSE THEY SPEND MONEY!! More than most folks, I might add..[/QUOTE]
Actually Scott, it's the 'middle class' that drives and flourishes the economy the most. Without the middle class you'd have a peasant class ruled by a king and aristocracy, just the very thing that the 'whole premise' of the US and it's Constitution was designed to do away with. The King of England was quite happy to have the colonists do all the work and send the fruits of their labour to him and his cronies.
Now gents, I never said anything about handouts or welfare or social services, and I'm sure that anyone who works and reports an income, doesn't qualify for welfare or whatever. I'm talking about that 'average amount' number owed by each citizen that totals the massive number that is the debt. Someone who makes $15,000/year certainly can't owe the same $46,000 than someone who makes $50,000,000/year.
If every citizen was a Wall Street tycoon, who would clean the toilets in their offices, or pave the roads they use to drive their Rolls to the country club, or drive the truck to deliver the scotch to the liquor store, or work in the grocery store which feeds the masses. There are all levels of income throughout society paid for necessary occupations which makes it all work. Different people doing all sorts of lesser jobs frees those capable of more to concentrate their abilities on their occupations. I've always had handsomely paying jobs and certainly didn't mind paying a little more towards the good society in which I live. Some folks will never be more capable of more than being a receptionist in a law office, or serving slurpees or cleaning toilets, but those are necessary occupations that make the whole thing work.
I ain't trying to minimize your effort jmaner in the hard work you've done to get ahead and do well in life, but you must realize that all those folks doing lesser jobs beneath you, enables you to do whatever it is you do, which I suppose is some sort of profession or highly skilled trade. Some wall street guy making $50,000,000 annually will do quite well making $49,000,000 annually, whereas how the heck does someone who makes $15,000/yr pay down $46,000 worth of debt after paying for shelter, food, and transportation, as well as a few bucks for some fun stuff, like a redline or 2 or maybe a day out to DisneyLand or a case of beer.
The point that is being made is: the higher income class should not be penalized or pay a higher percentage of taxes for making their share. Without them, many business' could not hire & create more jobs thus stimulating the economy. If John the custodian makes X-amount & Tom, the company's owner who employs him, makes X-amount the percentage they each are taxed should be equal. Business owners will always pay much more for everything they supply not only to the government but employee benefits as well. Of course everyone's situation varies & not all employees & business owners are fair & just in their actions or ways they live life or run a business. I am by no means in the upper income bracket but do not expect the owners of my company to get screwed by the government anymore than they already do. That's just my .98 cents.
Flat tax?
[QUOTE=dftcat;365571]Flat tax?[/QUOTE]
Basically....yes. Business will always incure a variety of taxes from the government. Look at what Christie has done in NJ after getting in.....lowered taxes & his state is finally starting to see some stability after having one of the worst financial deposits in the nation.
You guys may have inadvertantly agreed with me. Flat tax means a certain single percentage applicable across the board, part of which would be used to pay down national debt. Just say 10%.
Wall Street tycoon $50,000,000 pays 10% or $5,000,000 tax
Slurpee Server $15,000 pays $1,500 tax
Difference: $4,850,000
Wall Street tycoon lives on $45,000,000 annually
Slurpee Server lives on $13,500 annually
I'm sure the tycoon will not be suffering. Besides, most of his important 'work' is done on the golf course.
Sorry in advance I haven't read all of the posts (yet), but the gist seems to be you don't like the government spending, you don't like the government picking winners and losers. Well that's fine, if the economy were doing better I'd agree with you, and bailouts, unemployment, and stimulus spending wouldn't be going on. I don't like nation building or earmarks, we all have spending complaints.
We all agree the government is terrible at spending money. But when the government spends it does create things, no doubt roads are built, bullets made, congressmen get to live the high life, it is real.
My point remains that without government spending, the recession would be worse, possibly much worse.
Has anyone said they want the spending to stop and its ok for the economy to tank? If we remain in recession people will clamp down even tighter, its a vicious cycle. In my opinion its better to maintain GDP at some level until jobs return (people and companies need to see we aren't going to crash). When unemployment drops to 7% I'll be happy to support cutting all kinds of government spending and get back to spending within our means. ~10 years ago we had a balanced budget, it can be done, but don't you think its risky to do it RIGHT NOW. Why can't it wait two years until we're firmly out of the woods.
The argument seems to be short term vs long term good. I think if the short term recovery doesn't happen, there isn't much hope of fixing the long term problem.
[NJ is a work in progress, we have no solutions yet. I hope to get back to this topic, but so much going on this weekend]
All hand outs/bailouts have proved over & over again, is to sustain a business/corporation in the short term & never in growth/long term. Things will often bottom out & then recover when managed correctly but, by our government throwing an endless amount of non existent $$ at something, will never resolve anything. All you have to do is research history on this subject & it's plain as day.
Smaller government has always stimulated the economy while larger ones plunge us deeper under. This isn't the first time we have had a massive recession & probably won't be the last, but until Washington gets it's hand out & stops micro managing corporations & small business, we'll continue to slide deeper into recession. With all the stimulus $$ they've spent on bailouts, themselves & with restrictions & future restrictions on our free enterprises/corporations....they have truly shown that they don't have a clue as to what they're doing & that's sad indeed.
If a company has to fail or feels threatened that it will, let it manage it's self out & stop writing them blank checks with our money....that's just reality.
Hey Dan. Where do you work? I was briefly an ice cream driver and had all the Ben and Jerry's I wanted. I'm surprized I didn't weigh 400lbs when I worked there.lol.
Dave.
If the government wouldn't have spent the trillions they did, things *might* have temporarily been worse than it was. It would be better today though. Remember, unemployement went higher with the stimulus than the government claimed it would go without the stimulus.
If we had simply allowed things to play out, it would have been messy but shorter lived. All we are doing is accrueing massive debt and will still have to deal with the problems.
To use your example of
Wall Street tycoon $50,000,000 pays 10% or $5,000,000 tax
Slurpee Server $15,000 pays $1,500 tax
In this current state of tax, that does nothing to address the debt and the "x" amount owed/citizen for the national debt. That would just be the current year income tax which currently does not meet any type of budget thus our debt. Where is the money going to come from to cover the debt? Tax increases. Who will be taxed higher and on greater % of their income....it will not be the slurpee server. It can not only be the Tycoon either. It will be us that are left in the middle class. I don't even begin to imagine that the tycoon pays his full tax---he has nice accountants and tax lawyers to handle all of that....me I got Turbotax to help me. A 2-10% change may not affect the tycoon in his standard of living but it will affect those that are left in the middle class. We already are heading down a deadly spiral in which SSI, Healthcare, and debt payment will consume most of our national $$$/year. At some time hard decisions must be made.
This may not be a be a popular comment or thought but---for the baby boomers and such---will history remember you and those before you as the greatest generations or the generations that lead us to financial disaster. In my early 30's (still not old enough to run for president), I can't imagine how everything will be paid for and worry what will be left to my kids. I wonder what the elder senators and such will tell their kids when asked how we will pay for this. It may not matter anyway as we may all be speaking chinese at that point at the current rate anyways b/c they will own us. All I can do right now is vote for those who represent what I believe and work to cover my ass for when it all hits the fan.
[QUOTE=jmaner;365883]
1)Where is the money going to come from to cover the debt?
2)I don't even begin to imagine that the tycoon pays his full tax---he has nice accountants and tax lawyers to handle all of that...
3)It may not matter anyway as we may all be speaking chinese at that point at the current rate anyways b/c they will own us...[/QUOTE]
1)My question is: Does anyone really think that debt will ever be paid? Never!
2)...and has nice little secret bank accounts in tax havens such as Cayman Islands, Isle of Wight, and Switzerland in which to hide loot from the tax man!
3)I've always told my friends who have kids, and I've mentioned it here before,..."Better learn Chinese and teach your kids because everyone's gonna need to know how to understand orders". The imperial west is goin' down in the rising wake of Asia and in particular, Imperial China. Better hope we didn't do them any wrong in the past. Human flesh tastes like pork, and would go nice in fried rice.
[QUOTE=BlueWagoon;365982]I've always told my friends who have kids, and I've mentioned it here before,..."Better learn Chinese and teach your kids because everyone's gonna need to know how to understand orders". The imperial west is goin' down in the rising wake of Asia and in particular, Imperial China. Better hope we didn't do them any wrong in the past. Human flesh tastes like pork, and would go nice in fried rice.[/QUOTE]
Not without a fight from the west.....been there.........done that. If any American dosen't see fit to defend themselves & this country, shame on them & don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
Been off work for so long cant remember. On again off again. Dont wait around go out and do something for yourself. the Unemployment only lasts so long. And 1/3 or 1/4 of what ya make regularly. YEA RITE! Its a Bitch but it is what it is. Dont just lay down, go get yourself some!!!!!!!