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Kobe doesn't elbow anymore than the next, that's pointless to debate. It's called clearing out.<br><br>Shaq may be mentioned with the great centers of the league, but it's an honable mention only. He's nowhere near Kareem, Russel, Wilt, doesn't havehalf the game they did, and with his size, he should've been the best. He was lazy, rested on his credentials, and never pushed himself to be the best,imagine that guy in shape & making his FT! He would've had 45% more points from the line per game, imagine he dropped 30 pounds and the leaps he wouldahad, he should've had 20 RBs per game. He should've been......
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Chug - only brought up the Nuggets (and don't forget I referenced any NON SUPERSTAR right along with the Nuggets) to show the point of preferentialtreatment of superstars...<br><br>Yes, elbow's do happen.. however, Kobe's INTENTIONAL elbows are usually ignored...for the Elbow to Nelson.. thats an agree to disagree point.. I'dsay anybody who likes Kobe woudl say it was Nelsons fault, and anybody who hates Kobe would say it's Kobe's fault... The elbows he through in the 4thon DH however, were all Kobe.. but it's neither here nor there.. Lakers got the W, and are 1 win away from the series. Congrats to them.<br><br>Pietrus - that was a complete B**TCH move, he should be suspended for a game..that was uncalled for, i completely agree...and that woudl be the lamest excuseto use ever...<br><br><br>For Shaq - I've been in many an argumnet about him being overrated.. 1 night at TGIF's, me and my friends were talking about him, and they were sayinghe was in the top 10 - 15 of all time great NBA players.. I didnt not agree AT ALL. By the end of the night, it was me against about 30 bar patrons... I'dsay the majority of people think Shaq is great.. but to each thier own. IMO, he's overrated.<br><br>Kobe is a GREAT player.. there is no denying that, but that doesn't mean I have to like him :)<br><br>Chug.. you coming to Denver???
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OK, so I'm no huge fan of Shaq, but the guy has had a pretty dang good career. Stats don't lie.<br><br>Shaq's numbers, and remember, he's still playing...<br><br>(Numbers you care about from a center)<br><br>5th in total points<br>2nd in field goal percentage<br>6th in field goals made<br>15th in total rebounds<br>7th in blocks<br>18th in free throws made<br>4th in free throws attempted<br><br>All while logging significantly less career minutes than Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, and Russel...and has 4 rings to boot. Not a bad career.<br><br>The "what ifs" are irrelevant, he's already had a "one of the greatest of all time" career. Speaking of free throws...Wilt had a 51.1%career free throw shooting, slightly behind Shaq's 52.8%.<br><br>Dave, to say that Shaq was a liability...that's ignorant...ask Kobe or Dwayne if they thought having his inside presence was a liability to their games.Regardless of their feelings towards him now, they'll smile, clean their championship rings, and say "no".<br><br>Mike<br>HWsMinis
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Okay, I'm gonna jump into this one... I'm also no huge fan of Shaq's, but I think he does have a spot among the greatest. Remember that theposition of center was played much differently in Wilt's and Kareem's and Bill's day. Shaq rewrote the role of the center, and it was much moreappropriate for today's very physical style of play. And I think his size (and weight) were, and still are, essential to that style. The biggest issue withhim is the toll carrying around that much weight takes on him.<br><br>And regarding the "superstars get super treatment" statement: Has it ever occurred to y'all that the reason we notice it with the superstars issimply because we're watching them so much?
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Again boys........ His sheer size dictates success, the guy is a monster, I like Shaq and his under the basket tour de' force allowed Kobe to do what hewanted around the floor and when he got in a pickle he would dump it to the tree, who would just rise up and throw it down, no skill, just power and size. Oneof the greatest? I would say one of the greatest big men, at the TIME the Lakers went on their run there was no way to stop him and the refs were stymied onwhat/when to call fouls. But he was lazy........ Free throws, jump shots and just plain hustling his big ass back down the court, short term for the Lakers? Atthe time a success, long term a liability as other teams are finding out as his cross-country tour bus hauls him from team to team. Tom?? 30-bar patronsagainst YOU???? I'm likin' ya more and more my man!!! I would take your side just to argue with the drones, doesn't matter if I agree with ya ornot!! Denver.... ILYK!!!! Ignorance??? Mikey..... 4th in free throws attempted versus 18th in free throws made does not equal to impressivenumbers..........son.
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Dave - good grief dude...you just agreed w/ those of us who have stated that Shaq is one of the "all time great big men" but then you spend threemore sentences trying to argue with us as to why you agree. You are too much my man. LOL.<br><br>I posted Shaq's free throw percentage, it's horrible. I agree brutha!<br><br>Argue all you want, the guy has four rings, got your Kobe three of his three current rings and is a guaranteed hall of famer. 'Nuff said on that.<br><br>As for the Lakers, I was just sitting here thinking...are they getting the job done or are the Magic folding? I think it's a little bit of both. The Lakershaven't had a stellar Finals and I think they better feel lucky that a healthy Celtics team isn't facing them again. But regardless of how they'regetting it done, they're gonna get some new hardware for a ring finger.<br><br>When are we gonna start another thread about the crappiest teams in baseball. I vote D-Backs! LOL<br><br>Mike<br>HWsMinis
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<blockquote> <strong class="quote-title">HWsMinis wrote:</strong> <hr> "Shaq is not in the mentioning of GOATS, sorry." <br><br> Actually, he is. Spend some more time listening to most of the basketball "know it alls" and he's always in the "one of the greatest big men" conversations. He is most certainly in the top 50 of all time, and that, I believe, puts him as an all time great. When they have to make up rules because of you, then heck ya gotta be a great. LOL. <br><br> Horry is talked about as one of the greatest "specialists" in the game, ever. He just wasn't a marquee, 40 minutes a game, superstar. <br><br> As for the preferential treatment that Kobe gets, he's not the first. Magic carried the ball every stinkin' time he dribbles. Jordan spent a lot of time traveling with the ball. Shaq got away with tons of 3 second violations. They get their calls, 'cause Stern says so! It's a widely known fact and that is one giant smudge on the record of the NBA. <br><br> Great thread! <br><br> Mike <br> HWsMinis</blockquote><br><br>Sorry Mike, I was a little confused with your run-on. You said Shaq was/is one of the greatest big men (although his "skill" is from pure size, notskill, or passion for the game) and then you went on to say he was one of the top fifty of all time, I don't know if you could really count fifty greatestbig men? And I certainly don't count him as an all time great. But in the big guy category, yep he's there! Bad calls?? I would like to see em'lossen it up, let em' freakin' play!! Get Vince McMahon involved in a new league and let em' GO!!!!!
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Read the rules regard nelsons face, you have to give the player with the ball room to move, kobe didnt even see him coming. i also agree they should of gavekobe free throws, but hey the refs probably called it a night after letting the tragic shoot 14 free throws to the lakers 0 in the fourth quarter, the magichad 100 ways to win, they choose #101.. nice job!
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<blockquote> Read the rules regard nelsons face, you have to give the player with the ball room to move, kobe didnt even see him coming.</blockquote><br><br>Absolutely correct Scott!<br><br>End of conversation on Kobes elbow on Nelsons chin...<br>
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Dave,<br><br>There's no confusion. I state that I believe Shaq to be one of the greatest all time (in the top 50) regardless of position. There is no question thathe's in the top 5, with regards to "Center". I posted his stats, and with those, I believe somebody would have a hard time trying to disprovethose two qualifiers.<br><br>Mike<br>HWsMinis
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