What the he**......?!?
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What the he**......?!?
Alcohol....<br><br>Funny....<br><br>"And that's all I'm gonna say about that."<br><br>Joel.
Hey while were off topic did you guys hear about that Bobby Cutts guy that was convicted of murdering a woman and her unborn child?<br>
<strong>Getting back on topic, if i were to say what i'd really like to say, i'd probably be labled a racist........<img height="15" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/wavehello.gif" width="25" alt="image"><br><br>Since we all know now that he's gotten life with the possibility of parole after 58 years, let's just wait and see just how long this ex-cop/woman/babykiller really lasts in the joint.......<img height="17" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/thumbdown.gif" width="29" alt="image"><br><br>Hopefully not too long before some youngster shanks him to make his bones with the OG's.......<img height="27" src="http://mmb.maverick.to/images/smilies/yahoo.gif" width="42" alt="image"></strong>
Kitty of course i bought cheetos...i love em!!! just the regular kind though, not them spicy ones. sorry C....NEON foods rock. and Justin, just to go off yourNITRO r/c cars, which i love and miss my TMAXX, the fuel makes great fire starter!!! HEEHEE. and to round out the grocery list, steaks, a case of BUSCH or whatwe popo like to call felony beer, fish sticks, feminine hygene products and some baby oil!!!
That's bad news he should get the death penalty. hang him good.
Hey Andy!..........How about we just empty all of our prisons and parachute them all into Canada! Then, since you won't deport them, they will live off of"your" society and endanger you folks forever? The "Let's be Nice" routine doesn't work. Yeah!...Let's drop em all in there andthen beef the heck out of the border patrol!
<img height="15" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/pacman.gif" width="15" alt="image">Tell ya what I A R! If you guys doexecute that Canadian in Montana I think it is, grind him into hotdogs and feed to him this ex-Canadian and Media Mogul British Lord Conrad Black come Floridaprisoner 18330424. <a target="_blank" href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/black_conrad/">http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/black_conrad/</a>
Justin, a lot of people drop those plastic bags off in bins at the grocery or places like WalMart, Target, etc. They ship them off to be recycled into othergoods. A lot of them started out as milk cartons prior to being made into those "crappy" plastic bags. More of the brown paper sacks end up landfillsthan are recycled, at least around here.<br><br>Dan, yes, I'm female. Last I checked. I'm not from Iowa. Born Texan/military brat. I moved to Iowa for a change of scenery and cooler weather. Pfft.Record high temps the entire Summer and mild weather "back home." Great place, great people. I did amateur motocross. There are a few things Ihaven't done and would like to put on my "bucket list." One item on that list is to get my 200 patch. Had I stayed in Iowa, I probably would havedone that in a rail dragster (Bonneville). The team I was going to race Legends for had a rail for friends and family who wanted to crack the 200mph nut. Thefastest I've ever driven otherwise was in 1979, 140mph in my 68 Firebird. Whew, that was tough to write that one short.<br><br>Chris, always wear protective gear when getting in the middle of a bunch of bipolars in a free-for-all.<br><br>Johnny, we could start a Bobby Cutts Jr dead pool. It very likely will be a black guy who does the deed. It could trigger a serious race riot otherwise. In theeyes of others in prison, he has shamed his own people and will pay for it.<br><br>Rob. Cheetos, fish sticks, feminine hygiene products, beer and baby oil? Sounds like a redneck picnic to me! Now all we need is for the token drunken uncle toput on the swim fins and face plant into the kid's inflatable wading pool, immediately followed by the neighbour's rottweiler with the overactivesaliva glands.<br><br>Death Penalty, Revisited. I was thinking about this thread and specifically the DP subject while I was taking my shower. Yeah, I know, I think of weird crapwhen I'm in the shower. Anyway, I remembered one point of contention that definitely applies when discussing the topic. Those who have lived in placeswhere violence is more rampant tend to be less forgiving when it comes to the death penalty. I have lived in nice, safe areas and I have lived in places wherelife is measured by whatever you have that someone wants. Being poor really was a plus there. I also previously mentioned having lived in crowded societieswith far less violence and I feel that is because they exercise little tolerance for violent crime. Someone would be caught trying to smuggle heroin onto theisland, it became the <strong>only</strong> time he tried that. As well, there were far fewer addicts there. No supply, no demand. In my opinion that'sbackwards, but it works.<br><br>I also lived on the island of Luzon, Philippines. Some things have since changed, but in 1965, a neighbour of ours who caught some guy robbing their house (whoalso fondled her daughter while he was robbing the place) personally drove a few nails through the guy's body and into a wooden cross. No kidding. With itclose to Easter, for those interested, check into some of the interesting practices done in the Philippines during this time of year. Like I said, it'schanged since 1965, but some similar practices are continued.<br><br>Woot! One of my shortest posts in this thread yet! I'm getting better at this, Chris!
140 in a firebird Nice choice of cars too, I had a 68 camaro never did 140 in it crashed it before I could, I did have a 76 firebird and had it up there closea few times...........got pulled over in my feiro doing 103<img src="http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/frown.gif" alt="image">.
Hey KItty, that token Unlce gettin drunk and fallin into the kiddie pool sounds really familiar...let me explain. bout four years ago was at a family 4th ofJuly party. was havin a great time with my cousins gettin totally trashed and i mean totally trashed. between the four of us, we drank all the beer, and all ofmy cousins hard stuff..which i usually stay away from. well as the drunk fest was winding down, my cousin was stumbling through the back yard and wham, fellright on his ass into the kiddie pool!!!!! man that was funny as hell!!!
Something I was thinking about this morning... and this thread epitomizes it...<br><br>All of human existence is madness, and we've got far bigger things to worry about than our little egoic concerns.<br><br>How can we be entrusted with difficult discernments such as Capital Punishment when we can't even be entrusted with not soiling our own nest?<br><br>We seem intent on snuffing ourselves out of existence, by any means necessary, while all the time keeping ourselves so egoically distracted that we can remainfirmly in denial of anything that really matters. But the ego is, by its very nature, needy, and can never have enough... we always want more, better; adequateexistence will never do for the ego.<br><br>Which is what keeps us on the treadmill, pretending that everything is okay as we race headlong into our own self-created demise.<br><br>Which may be exactly the right thing...<br><br>Humans, and our creations, are like a cancer on the earth. And like any cancer, it will continue to spread until it destroys its host.<br><br>So Capital Punishment, or any of the other silly issues that have been bouncing around this thread? Pffft.<br><br>Peace,<br>Greg
I'm with yah Greg............I have super high speed internet roadrunner and after a year it's so slow now what..............I will not even go in thewater at the beach it's too bad I live ten or fifteen miles away but I'm not going to swim in a million peoples piss and turds......<img src="http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/indifferent.gif" alt="image">
Anyone want to make a bet on how long Mr. Cutts lives in prison? I bet he will live a long life and we will have the joy of paying for his living expenses.<br><br>Too bad most of society is a bunch of pansies. Makes me wonder what kind of feel good drugs they are putting in the water in Ohio. Rob must not be drinking thecity water because he seems to still have his sense of justice.<br><br>I blame this feel good crap on the watered down world full of BS we live in. People are groomed to be wussies. From what they get fed on TV to the must have"necessities" they get brainwashed into buying. The world makes no sense we can turn on network TV and see explicit programing and every other pieceof mindrot crap but God forbid we execute a deranged murderer. Noooo thats Barbaric! You want to know whats Barbaric? Heres some Barbarian behavior for ya!<br><br>How about a bunch of sickos having the right to assemble and plot how they are going to abduct and rape children and to top it off they get defended by theACLU? What about criminals being popularized by their songs about gang banging and glorifying criminal activity? How about a elite upper class that dominatessociety and has the wealth and power to do as they please without consequence? What about kids that dont know how to read or write becuase our educationalsystem has become about politics and money rather than truly educating society? How about society becoming exponentially stupid every year? Or what aboutathletes that torture and kill dogs being given a year or less sentence in prison because of who they are? What about the FDA giving free passes tocorporations they benifit from to classify their products as beneficial? Is this all not a bunch of Barbaric behavior?<br><br>Yeah call me a Barbarian for wanting to purge some scum from the earth rather than pat them on the ass and cater to their needs. Screw them! Hang them by theirgonads from a tree and let the animals eat them. Its not about revenge. I dont feel wronged personally by Mr. Cutts for what he did. But theres a sense ofjustice i feel needs to be dished out. Thousands of murderers rapists and child molesters never wronged me personally but they are never the less scum thatdeserve to die! And who knows i could have just as well been abducted and murdered by them when i was little so IMO they would have hurt me just the same asanyone else. But i do feel wronged that me and every other American will be having to pay for his scumbag self while he sits on his ass. So there. Its nothingto do with revenge. Its everything to do with justice and saving us money. Make sense?<br>
Greg you are assuming ego does not "really matter" when in fact no one is egoless.
No Justin (not an attack from me), that doesn't make sense. You intelligently list the some of the things that lead right to the very root of the problem,but seem to rather just mop up the mess in the bandwagons wake of failure! You've repeatedly mentioned just what I have been saying. Be carefull with theuse of that word 'society' though as it's rooted from the same origin as the word 'social' (ask right wing Christian Pat Buchanancommenting on the Social State of Canuckistan), and that my friend is a swear word(ironically enough, Socrates was somewhat of a Barbarian himself). It'snot what's best for society, it's about the individual. Like me, you mention the crap on the TV, but let me tell you about a word called censorship.Believe me, it's more important that people have the choice to watch it, than what's best for the very society in which they live that it poisons. TELLME SOMEONE WHAT BENEFIT TO A DECENT SOCIETY DOES GRAPHIC SIMULATED SNUFF PORN ON AT 9:00pm, OR ANY TIME SERVE......................................PLEASE, TELLME!!!! NOW!!!! PLEASE! AND,.....would anyone please tell me if they would let their kids hang out with the children of other parents who allowed their kids to,and would you even want your kids going out the door into a society that allows and condones this feculent garbage? I don't think putting the heel to thissh!t is denying anyone LIBERTY OR FREEDOM!!!!!! Try living in a society with checkpoints at every corner and have no choice as to your occupation or wages,THAT is denial of Liberty! Andy
It's not actually the 'ego' that is the culprit, it's the 'id'. The id is the bad guy and the source of all these types of impulsesand instincts (hence, idea, idiot, stupid, etc...). The 'ego' resides between the 'id' and the 'super ego', and regulated the id'simpulses according to the standards of morality and decency found within and asserted the by the higher evolved 'super ego'.....sorta like a monkey inthe middle kinda thing (the monkey we are between God and the critters. Ape=Apex<img height="15" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/pacman.gif" width="15" alt="image">). Most people just say 'ego', we know what theymean. Andy<img height="15" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/pacman.gif" width="15" alt="image"><p><br></p>
"Yeah call me a Barbarian for wanting to purge some scum from the earth..."<br><br>And tell me, whom will it be that decide which are the scum that need purging? You?<br><br>"Its not about revenge."<br>"But theres a sense of justice i feel needs to be dished out."<br><br>Doesn't really matter, because there's no such thing as either "revenge" or "justice". They're both a mirage - somethingwe're always chasing after, but have no hope of achieving. Once you have a "sense" that you achieved either one, was it <em>really</em>satisfying? Will it improve your personal life if we kill that "scum"?<br><br>"Its everything to do with justice and saving us money. Make sense?"<br><br>No... see above re. justice. Re. saving money, it costs much more to put someone to death than imprison them for the rest of their lives. I know you'llcry "THAT'S WRONG - IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT WAY!!" but it is that way, so it's not about saving money either.
Oh, and re. ego...<br><br>Mark - true; no one is egoless, just as no one is mindless. But what are your thoughts? What are they made of? What happens to them after you think them? Inthe grand scheme of things, no, they don't matter.<br><br>Andy, call it what you want - ego, id, whatever - it's all a construct of the mind, and either way completely devoid of any meaning or gravity.
There's a potential new criminal born every few minutes. The word is 'potential'. Is it worth going anywhere with this idea, or is it time to cutout? Rob got an answer to his original question, why continue? Andy<img height="20" src="http://mmb.maverick.to/images/smilies/hmmm.gif" width="20" alt="image"><p><br></p>Edit: Will the possible future criminality of this offspring be have been determined genetically, or will it be a matter of social conditions and cultural programming? If it's the previous, we're in trouble. If it's the latter, there's possibilities.
<p>Perrrrfect.<br>Sorry Officer Rob, your stop at the store is old news now. We got a real burner here.<br>J-fans the flames of the smoldering embers. Just when I thought we would have to ask Rob about more details of his baby oil, Busch beer, and Cheetos run,walla! Thumbs up J!<img height="54" src="http://mmb.maverick.to/images/smilies/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif" width="76" alt="image"></p><p>A-never let's us down. Comes complete with more fictional TV/movie plotlines, as if they're actually usable material for such a debate. Bonus forbringin back the snuff porn angle, for those who might have missed it the first time around.<img height="20" src="http://www.ezboard.com/image/posticons/pi_thumbsup.gif" width="20" alt="image"></p><p>G-forever the romantic. My guess, he needs the work. As long as we NEVER get tough on crime, we're goin to need lots of prisons, can you say CAching! Somebody has got to build them prisons! Job security. Bonus point for Greg, for using the ole standby, it's cheaper to keep em angle! Which is reallythe main problem with this entire debate! We've now come full circle, took the long way around, and just wait! We've still got the Kitty waitin ondeck. <img height="35" src="http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/banana.gif" width="33" alt="image"></p><p>Grab some more popcorn, this thread as at least another 15 in ere!<img height="35" src="http://sshare1.familylobby.com/icons/icon_popcorn.gif" width="35" alt="image"><br></p>
like cousin Randy said in Christmas Vacation..."it's the gift that keeps on giving". it's not the jelly of the month club...but this threadsure is like it..ya just don't know what you are gonna find when ya open it up!!!
It's sorta like dinner<img height="25" src="http://mmb.maverick.to/images/smilies/stirthepot.gif" width="25" alt="image">went all wrong! <img height="35" src="http://sshare1.familylobby.com/icons/icon_popcorn.gif" width="35" alt="image"><p><br></p>
Andy- You hit the nail on the head! We should be allowed to watch watever the hell we want to as long as its not being produced off the harming of otheres (iesnuff films, kiddy porn) Other than that you are absolutely right there should be no censorship. You completely missed the point of what i was saying. Lemmebreak it down for you. What i was saying was why the hell do folks get all hell bent on patting criminals on the ass and calling those that want them to paythe penalty for their actions Barbarians when at the same time they have no problems with the fact everything else about the world is being saturated withcrap. Forgive me if im making an assumption here. But i take it youd go right along with a film being distributed about how to blow up elementary schools thatgives a step by step tutorial of how to plant the explosives so on and so fourth. I mean you cant ban it can you? Ooooh no that would be censorship and godforbid some wackos that want to get their message out be silenced by "big brother". Yet its barbaric to execute a criminal that murdered a woman andher unborn child? Do you get it now? Is it sinking in? It was a comparison of how some of you guys have some sort of whacked out double standards when it comesto what is right and wrong. Not a statement that im condoning censorship.<br><br><blockquote> Doesn't really matter, because there's no such thing as either "revenge" or "justice". They're both a mirage - something we're always chasing after, but have no hope of achieving. <br></blockquote><br>Greg- Wow no such thing as justice? Im speechless. Congratulations you just slapped every man and woman in the face who ever wore a badge or gave their lifefor this "mirage" as you so call it. Tell ya what partna, lets just stop arresting criminals altogether then. Hows that? I mean if justice is anallusion then so is right and wrong. Whats the need? Lets just quit enforcing laws. Just dont complain when they barge in your home and beat you upside thehead and steal your property. No Greg i think youd be singing a whole different tune if you had your rights violated by a criminal. Or even more so if someonemurdered or raped someone close to you. Yeah everyone always gets all damn high and mighty when their life is peachy and they dont have to confront the horrorsof society. Youd be singin a different tune if you were surrounded by scum and got to see the horrible things people do first hand.<br><br><blockquote> I know you'll cry "THAT'S WRONG - IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT WAY!!"</blockquote>Oh and thats a bold statement since youve done the bulk of the crying about this topic. But thanks for taking something un related to mepersonally and making it personal. I think youre the only one here throwing around any sort of ego my friend. But i'll be getting "personal" inthis reply as well so lets just consider us even and throw the whole "ego" argument out the window.<br><br><blockquote> And tell me, whom will it be that decide which are the scum that need purging? You?</blockquote><br>Again way to make something about me personally. But since you asked. No! Not me buddy. How about the millions of others that are sick of this crap as well? Dothey pass as a majority that has something to say in your book? I know youd like to make me out to be some sort of freedom hating nut that only cares aboutwhat i think is right thats why im sure you make this comment in reference to me. But no i hate to ruin it for you but theres a damn lot of people that wantthe same things that are tired of it as well. So hows that for an answer?<br><br><br><br><blockquote> Once you have a "sense" that you achieved either one, was it <em>really</em> satisfying? Will it improve your personal life if we kill that "scum"? <br></blockquote><br>Again this is exactly what the hell is wrong with the world. Folks like you only care if it "improves your personal life" You apparently care less ifit helps the world as a whole. Yeah everyone wants to believe that only crap in their peachy little lives matters. "Buy the SUV that gets 10mpg because itmakes me feel better. I dont care what it does to the environment." or "Dont kill murderers or rapists because it upsets me and doesnt help mepersonally." Way to put yourself above the greater good because i know it matters more that something "improves your personal life". Ya knowwhat? If you want to "improve your personal life" then go to Sharper Image but leave your need to only benefit yourself out of cleaning up the world.Theres no room for personal want when it comes to making things better for the rest of society. Everyone must sacrifice some of their feelings or wants at somepoint if they wish to help others. Apparently you arent ready to do that.<br><br><br><br><br>
FYI - spare me that left wing right wing crap. Its a waste of time. Im neither left or right so save it please for someone that gives a damn. More importantthings than arguing where ones zombie allegiance lies.<br>
^Nice use of a preemptive-well done, and WAY to bring back the Zombies!
Can someone tell me how to make nice purdy paragraphs like all you guys? I haven't figured this thing out? Then when I learn how to do that, I can be moreefficient communicating from out here on Pluto. Justin, I never referred to you personally as a barbarian, nor anyone else. I said the DP is a barbaric act andspeaks to the barbarism within us. Jails should only be for the violent crimes, and maybe too that of large white collar crimes not unlike the Enron thingwhere people lost absolutely everything. Someone caught smoking crack for the 5th time certainly doesn't need to be put in jail for 15 years while rapistsor murderers walk. Seems all the Police Chiefs in Canada want all hand-guns banned and all long guns registered, and it's the right wing element herethat's adamant on stopping that. The gun fans in this country doesn't want the government to know how many rifles they own, whether it be 1, 5, or200. At least when the cops respond to a residence, they'll know if there are guns of any sort within, there-by reducing their chance of being surprised.Or should the Police assume that any and every house they go to is dangerous, whether it be Joe Slum on the inner east side, or Ritchie Ritches house on anwealthy estate 20 miles from town. Why do people have no problem registering their cars, dogs, cats, bicycles, etc.....but not their guns? I've oftentossed around the name of a certain group of folks in Germany in WWII, that's.........Einsats Groupen,...................yes, it's all them rightieswho are so damn adamant about the guns here in Canada. Take 'em all away with the exception of farmers who are approved by a local body of citizens,hunters can get their guns from a police lock up when whatever's in season. Shooting enthusiasts, you're guns are to be kept in lock-up at the localgun club under the close scrutiny of a paid for attendant Police Officer, and so on. Anyone caught using any weapon for any reason, you're in jail. Ourstreets in Canada are FLOODED with guns from the US both legally obtainable due to lax laws in some states then smuggled en masse , and stolen from the housesof legal gun owners then smuggled here. Maybe we should go into the US after the guns and the people who purvey them, as the US goes into Colombia and pursuesthe source of their problems with cocaine. Don't make us come down there! <img height="15" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/pacman.gif" width="15" alt="image"><p><br></p>
Andy i never said you called me a Barbarian personally. I just questioned the logic that its somehow alright to condone the act of flooding the world withgarbage ideals but its a Barbaric to condone the death penalty. That was all.<br><br>As for your response tell me what in the world does gun control, laws in Canda, or cocaine have to do with the death penalty for murderers, rapists, or childmolesters? Dude i had this thing back on topic and now its yet once again veering off course.<br><br>Were talking about <span style="font-weight: bold;">THE DEATH PENALTY IN THE UNITED STATES AND HOW IT SHOULD BE USED REGARDING MURDERERS RAPISTS AND CHILDMOLESTERS.</span><br>
Ya know what? Lets get past our feelings and "improving our personal lives" issue and just get to the meat and bones of this debate.<br><br>Greg says......<br><br>"it costs much more to put someone to death than imprison them for the rest of their lives."<br><br>Greg where does this "fact" come from? Show me where it says the cost of having a full blown trial and sentencing someone to death is more expensivethen having a full blown trial and sentencing someone to 58 years in prison where we not only pay all the money for the trial but also for their livingexpenses once they have been sentenced. Not to mention other expenses for helping them back into society like work release programs, and expenses incurred byhaving to keep an eye on them. Show me. And in the event that it is more youll at least be right about something for a change. Good for you.<br><br>Secondly show me how even if it does cost more to execute why it is more beneficial to society having these people (ie murderers, rapists, child molestors)Still living? What good comes of it that benefits the families of the victims and society? Im not talking about them saying "they are sorry" Thatsbs. Im sure they are sorry! Sorry that they screwed up their own lives.<br><br>So go on and show me where this all makes the world "better". No cheap shots! No straying to other issues about feel good crap. Just hard facts toshow what makes the death penalty so bad.<br>
You guys are the leaders of the free and civilized world. We are part of that world and subject to the influences eminating from there-in. If we are subject,then we have a say, and a duty to speak up. Seems that more and more states are opting out of the DP..............I see no-one as of yet wanted to run with mypost about the potential criminal born every minute. Robs question has been answered, if the discussion continues, then it should include all aspects of the DPincluding the social and cultural conditions that allows for it's necessity. <img height="15" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/pacman.gif" width="15" alt="image"><p><br></p>
Still no answer to the above. Lots of feelings and talk about criminals in general. But nothing pertaining to the core of this debate.<br>
Quick shot at the math. 58 years @ $40G's to sustain a child killer is just about $2, 320,000.00 for the life. Cost of the death penalty trial, from what Ihear on the streets can cost a Mil, more or less, depending on the amount of appeals. If they guy has his own money, discount that amount, because the Statedoesn't have to buy him an attorney. Death not only saves us tax dollars to be given to people who don't like to work, but it also sends a message tothe masses. Of course this message is better served/delivered at $19.95 on PPV.....
<table border="0"><tbody><tr><td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2"><br><br> Cost of Life Without Parole: Cases </font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> <br><strong><font color="#000040">Equivalent To Death Penalty Cases</font> </strong> </font></td> <td><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">Cost of Death Penalty Cases</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><br></td> </tr><tr><td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">1. $34,200/year</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(1)</font><font color="#000040" size="2">for 50 years</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(2)</font><font color="#000040" size="2">, at</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> <br></font> <strong><font color="#000040" size="2"> a 2%</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(3)</font><font color="#000040" size="2">annual cost increase, plus</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> <br></font> <strong><font color="#000040" size="2"> $75,000</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(4)</font><font color="#000040" size="2">for trial & appeals</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">= $3.01 million </font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td width="5"><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">$60,000/year</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(1)</font><font color="#000040" size="2">for 6 years</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(5)</font><font color="#000040" size="2">, at </font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> <br></font> <strong><font color="#000040" size="2">a 2%</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(3)</font> <font color="#000040" size="2">annual cost increase, plus</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> <br></font> <strong><font color="#000040" size="2">$1.5 million</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(4)</font> <font color="#000040" size="2">for trial & appeals</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">= $1.88 million </font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> </tr><tr><td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">2. Same, except 3%</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(3)</font><font color="#000040" size="2"> </font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">= $4.04 million</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">Same, except 3%</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(3)</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">= $1.89 million</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> </tr><tr><td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">3. Same, except 4%</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(3)</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">= $5.53 million</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><br></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">Same, except 4%</font> <font color="#FF0000" size="2">(3)</font><font size="2"> </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> <td><strong><font color="#000040" size="2">= $1.91 million </font></strong><font size="2"> </font></td> </tr></tbody></table><br><p><strong><font color="#DD0000" size="2">(1)</font></strong> <font size="2"><font color="#000040">The $34,200 is conservative, if TIME Magazine's (2/7/94)research is accurate. TIME found that, nationwide, the average cell cost is $24,000/yr. and the maximum security cell cost is $75,000/yr. (as of 12/95).Opponents claim that LWOP should replace the DP. Therefore, any cost calculations should be based specifically on cell costs for criminals who have committedthe exact same category of offense - in other words, cost comparisons are valid only if you compare the costs of DP-equivalent LWOP cases to the cost of DPcases. The $34,200/yr. cell cost assumes that only 20% of the DP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in maximum security cost cells and that 80% of theDP-equivalent LWOP cases would be in average cost cells. A very conservative estimate. The $60,000/yr., for those on death row, assumes that such cells willaverage a cost equal to 80% of the $75,000/yr. for the most expensive maximum security cells. A very high estimate.</font> Even though we are calculating a 75%greater cell cost for the DP than for equivalent LWOP cases, equivalent LWOP cases appear to be significantly more expensive, over time, than their DPcounterparts. For years, opponents have improperly compared the cost of all LWOP cases to DP cases, when only the DP equivalent LWOP cases arerelevant.</font></p><p><font color="#DD0000" size="2">(2)</font> <font size="2"><font color="#000040">U.S. Vital Statistics Abstract, 1994 and Capital Punishment 1995, BJS1996.</font></font></p><p><font color="#DD0000" size="2">(3)</font> <font size="2"><font color="#000040">Annual cost increases are based upon: 1) historical increases in prisoncosts, including judicial decisions regarding prison conditions, and the national inflation rate; 2) medical costs, including the immense cost of geriatriccare, associated with real LWOP sentences; 3) injury or death to the inmate by violence; 4) injury or death to others caused by the inmate (3 and 4 anticipateno DP and that prisoners, not fearing additional punishment, other than loss of privileges, may increase the likelihood of violence. One could make the sameassumptions regarding those on death row. The difference is that death row inmates will average 6 years incarceration vs. 50 years projected for LWOP); 5) therisk and the perceived risk of escape; and 6) the justifiable lack of confidence by the populace in our legislators, governors, parole boards and judges, i.e.a violent inmate will be released upon society.</font></font></p><p><font color="#DD0000" size="2">(4)</font> <font size="2"><font color="#000040">$75,000 for trial and appeals cost, for DP-equivalent LWOP cases, assumesthat the DP is not an option. We believe this cost estimate is very low. We have over-</font>estimated <font color="#000040">that DP cases will cost twentytimes more, on average, or $1.5 million.</font> Our exaggerated estimate states that the DP will have twenty times more investigation cost, defense andprosecution cost, including voir dire, court time, guilt/innocence stage, sentencing stage and appellate review time and cost than DP equivalent LWOP cases.Even though we have greatly exaggerated the cost of DP cases, DP cases still prove to be significantly less expensive, over time, than the DP equivalent LWOPcases.</font></p><font color="#DD0000" size="2">(5)</font> <font size="2"><font color="#000040">6 years on death row, prior to execution, reflects the newhabeas corpus reform laws, at both the state and federal levels.</font> Some anti-death penalty groups speculate that such time may actually become only 4years. If so, then DP cases would cost even that much less than the DP equivalent LWOP cases. However, the average time on death row, for those executed from1973-1994, was 8 years (Capital Punishment 1994, BJS, 1995). Therefore, 6 years seems more likely. Even using the 8 year average, the DP equivalent LWOP casesare still $1 million more expensive than their DP counterparts ($2 million @ 2% annual increase).<br><br></font> <span style="font-weight: bold;">Let the facts be said in numbers and not feelings. Note this based on life without parole cases and doesnt evenbegin to include the cost incurred on release programs in cases where these folks get paroled</span>.<br>
I was not going to get involved in this "discussion", again!<br> Greg, if I may intervene, is talking about this.....<br><a target="_blank" href="http://www.fnsa.org/v1n1/dieter1.html">http://www.fnsa.org/v1n1/dieter1.html</a><br> But sometimes, there is such overwhelming evidence, that when the jury comes back with,"Off with his head", there is a Guillotine waiting behindthe courthouse. Done , over, period. No more costs incurred. <br> Later, Steve
Look from the other end, which can be remedied. A lotta these murderous gang bangers and what have you, come from families who, lets face it, don'texactly have the best pedigree. Couple that with the thoughts and mindsets these hungry disenfranchised kids formulate growing up absorbing all the poison onTV and in the culture, poverty, etc....and they'll have not much respect for a society that in their minds, spat them out and sh!t on them. By that I meanthe lack of things like accessible swimming pools in the summer, other various affordable programs that we had growing up in the '60s and '70s.It's become a user fee society that leaves a whole bunch out. I grew up in a middle income family and never suffered, but I know the rate of degradation tothe social institutions in society are taking an enormous toll. I'll tell you the problem right now, it's the differences that have taken place insociety since about 1980. What we are exposed to now is incredibly different than what it was. JUSTIN.............you shoulda been there man! Andy
<blockquote> Of course this message is better served/delivered at $19.95 on PPV.....</blockquote>I've always thought PPV would be a great thing...the money raised could go to the victims of these scum bags...<br>SIGN ME UP<br><br><br><br><br><img src="http://www.ezboard.com/image/posticons/pi_freak.gif" alt="image"><br>
<img height="15" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/pacman.gif" width="15" alt="image">What was in 1970, and what is now,are 2 totally different worlds! Is it game over for us?
<img height="15" src="http://redlinesonlinemessageboard.yuku.com/domain/bypass/images/pacman.gif" width="15" alt="image">I see the economists have come outwith the numbers for our crunching!
As I said, somewhere much much earlier in this thread - I've found that it's almost impossible to have a rational discussion with people who arepro-death penalty. They just become angry and then take everything personally and go on the attack.<br><br>And once it has descended to that level, I'm done. I'm obviously a party crasher here, so I'll go away and y'all can enjoy your hatefest.<br><br>Peace,<br>Greg
Andy. What? Dude i love ya man but seriously you contradict the hell out of yourself. You were praising the values of not having censorship earlier and nowyoure condeming TV violence as the source of the problem. Make up your mind.<br><br>And yes i got some numbers up for you all to look at. Shame on me for providing some hard facts. <img src="http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/laugh.gif" alt="image"><br>