California...

[groggerbug]

Jamie, sheesh.... morality can be derived from society, religion, philosophy, individual conscience, etc., or any and all of the above. And yes; I really DOthink Hitler believed he was doing his Christian duty. The KKK feels they are doing their Christian duty too.

And about the other point - tolerance is one thing; pointing out narrow-minded thinking is another. I'll admit there are things that I am narrow-mindedabout, and I don't mind it being pointed out to me. In fact, I welcome it - it just means there's something else for me to learn.

If you go back a few and read my last post to Dan (camarocrazy) see if you think I'm being intolerant. I love the guy and ABSOLUTELY I support his right tobelieve whatever he wants to believe, but I WILL continue to point out to him where I believe he is mistaken in his thinking. It absolutely DOES NOT meanI'm being intolerant of him. As you said, I am disagreeing with him.

If Hitler were alive I would be tolerant of him too; and I would support EVEN HIS right to believe what he wants to believe. But the depth of my disagreementwith his way of thinking would make sure he was locked up so he could do no harm to society!

And to Dan - heavens no, I don't dislike you. And I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt. If I was responsible for that, I apologize. If ithasn't been made clear by what I've already said, I may disagree with your thinking and believe you are being narrow-minded (like ALL of ussometimes....) but it absolutely does not mean I don't like you. You're a great guy!

Greg

[deputyrob]

i love Elton John's music!!

[6pak69]

Kitty said ... "6pak69 Mike, always there with your ignorant views. It was expected, but this time you went beyond ignorance to the point of sheerstupidity. True, legal gay marriage comes with baggage; that much I will agree with you. There's that nasty divorce issue that can come with it, butthat's as far as my agreement with you goes. Gay couples already adopt children all over this nation, as well as many others. You make it sound likewe're all out to infect children with our homosexuality, as though it's a disease. Many of us share the same general value systems that you do, and inmany cases, I venture to say a more wholesome set of values. Certainly, I don't see homosexuals raising children to be intolerant fanatics like you, whobelieve that their way is the only way."

I'll tell you what Kitty, read my post. Now read your post.Now tell me who the intolerant fanatic is.You have consistently posted angry,intolerant, andbelow the belt opinions regarding Christianity. Now you are outraged when some of us dare to criticize something you believe strongly. I had no idea that youare gay.So my comments cannot be taken as personal.I do claim the same right that you are claiming, however. Namely, to criticize another persons opinion. Iwill always do so respectfully however.I invite you to do the same. I have gay and lesbian friends whom I am very fond of. Every one of them is aware of myposition.Yet we remain friends.They appear much more comfortable with their chosen lifestyle than you do. If your angry and outraged post is any indication,that is. I view your post as the response of someone who feels ashamed inwardly of what they believe.You have taken every opportunity to slash myself and mybeliefs to ribbons. Yet I would never think of referring to you as ignorant or stupid. You are merely wrong.

[6pak69]

Gramps.Your Hitler quotes are taken completely out of context. They are most certainly not evidence that Hitler was a Christian.Or that he embraced theteachings of Christ. If you feel that Hitler was acting consistently with Christs teachings, please refer us to the related passages from the Bible in whichChrist supports the activities that Hitler was involved in. Even the most casual study of Hitler and what he believed will show you that Hitler was attemptingto organize a national church under his supreme authority. He imprisoned or hung many of the clergy who attempted to stop him. Placing puppet religous leadersin positions of authority.

The big issue for you Gramps is this. What basis do you have for viewing the actions of Hitler as morally wrong? Lets say that he had the support of 61 percentof the German people.

[jamwood1]

Greg,

I realize morality can come from religion, but I meant, as you state yourself, It is not solely a product of religion but of very many elements we havecollectively encountered in our lives. Believe it or not, you and I are probably not that far off in what our personal beliefs are. Between the fact Idon't always express myself in writing the way I mean to, and the fact that I like to play devil's advocate, it may not always seem thatway......except for the Hitler thing, can't agree with you that he thought he was doing right by his Christian beliefs.

[CHEVY57]

#1 - homosexuality is NOT a choice or a "lifestyle". It's hard wired into the brain,

Maybe in a SMALL percentage and but not all of them that's for sure. Most make a choice.
A friend of ours is a Lesbian and she had a bad experience with a family member when she was a kid. She was then turned off to men. And if you hear mostlesbians stories they are the same. Therefore it is a choice.. a lifestyle plain and simple.
As with everything else, this marriage thing is also about money period. They want medical coverage for there mates.
If they want to marry I say let 'em why shouldn't they be just as miserable as us.

[CHEVY57]

also about making a choice, having this whole lifestyle out of the closet and mainstream makes it more acceptble for the nerdy kids that can't get a datein high school to "try it" there is another choice to be made.

[99octane]

Chevy57, you are in fact wrong about whether homosexuality is a choice
(you say it is only in a minority).

The sexual orientation of the individual is NOT a choice in the vast VAST majority of
instances, but how it is expressed, if at all, is where personal choice comes in.

Same with heterosexual people. Are there straight people who are into some
pretty kinky stuff who keep that aspect of their sexuality "in the closet"?
You better believe there are.
Just like there are ones who are so open about themselves,
you wish they wouldn't be.
But the fact that they are HETEROsexual wasn't a choice, was it?
The same is true of the vast majority of homosexual people.
What you're attracted to isn't really up to you.
What you do about it, if anything, is your choice.

-Greg

[CHEVY57]

So you're saying that all the women that were abused by men at a young age just happened to be Gay? not most of them swore off men from that day on. Thisis fact coming from the woman themselves.
Then like I said all the awkward kids the nerds the ones that don't fit in and never had a date, they are more willing to try the gay life just to fit in.Instead of waiting to outgrow it like we all did. They make a choice too.

[99octane]

Why on Earth do you think Lesbians are gay because men abused them??
And you think that explains a majority of the Lesbian population?
I just want ot be clear on this, but that does seem to be what you're saying.

Most of them tried to be "good little girls" and date men,
just as many gay men tried to to live "straight" lives while actually in the closet.
These men were born gay, which they usually realized
around the same time we all start to have sexual feelings; puberty,
and then had to choose what to do about it.
Awkward first sexual encounters are the norm, even among straight people,
can you imagine how awkward first sexual excounters are for young people who
are actually gay, but are trying to do what most of their friends expect of them,
and get sexual with the gender they're NOT attracted to? Yikes!

I'm certain that many of the lesbians you mention who "swore off men"
were gay anyway, and just didn't realize it or were in denial about it.
That's why, for their part, the relationships failed.
Physical abuse is not limited to this situation of course,
and any man who puts his hands on a woman is king of the losers anyway.

As for trying to figure out where a person's sexuality fits in,
whether out of shame, persecution or fear of it, family pressure,
(which can be HUGE) or religious or other convictions telling them it's wrong,
many gay men tried to date women, have sex with them, and even have families.
I know one such man very well, his father was one of my grandfather's brothers.
He's gay. He's always been gay. But he got married,
had sex with his wife, had two daughters, and then ...
when living this lie became too much, got divorced and came out of the closet.
It was rough, yes, as all divorces are. But today he's on great terms with his ex,
his daughters love him to death, he's close to both,
(one is straight and one is gay, by the way) and everyone's happier.
He 's a grandfather himself now. And no, his daughter isn't afraid her child
will catch "gay" from grandpa or that he'll abuse the toddler sexually in any way.
(I know you yourself Chevy57 didn't imply that at all, but some have).

It's far FAR better to be who you are then to try and live a lie.
Don't you agree?
(Assuming "who you are" isn't a monster, and gay people aren't).

Again, what gender and "type" you're attracted to is NOT your choice.
What you do about it IS.

-Greg